The Hostage Mode Can Still Be Cheesed; Shifting Tides Gameplay Update – Rainbow Six Siege

The Hostage Mode Can Still Be Cheesed; Shifting Tides Gameplay Update – Rainbow Six Siege

What’s up guys, Rogue-9 here and now that
the new season for Rainbow Six Siege has launched, it’s time to look into the gameplay changes
in detail to fully understand how they will affect the game with Operation Shifting Tides! You may have already seen the patch notes for
the new season but as always, all is not as it seems. For instance the Gadget Trajectory update
is very inconsistent as of now and probably still a work in progress and the changes
to the Hostage vulnerability are also flawed in a couple of ways. As always in these videos, there is a pinned
comment below with timestamps to each topic in case you already know
some parts and want to skip to others! So come, let me show you what’s up! By the way, I have done some extensive testing
on the weapon changes and operator changes of the new patch and those will be split out
into separate videos, so look out for those on the channel as well! But the gun and operator changes aside, let’s
just walk through the patch notes and balancing notes one by one to capture everything that is changing. Easily one of the most interesting and
exciting changes is the limb penetration system. I have already tested and covered this
in-depth in a recent video, so I won’t be going over it again here but do see the card on screen
now or the link in the end card if you want to go back and fully understand this new system! Another nice little quality of life change
is the new and updated rappelling system. When nearing the roof of a building while
rappelling now, you will need to hit a button to exit from the rappel, which will make it
much easier to get close to the upper limit of your vertical range without
constantly mantling onto the roof by accident. It takes a little while to get used to this
system, especially if you are in a hurry to get up and you forget that you will now
need to push a button but once you are in tune with the new system, the added
flexibility it will give you is invaluable. Over to the gadget trajectory asset destruction. The aim here is to standardise how map
objects in the game, like vases, stacks of paper, pc monitors etc. interact with
projectiles (both thrown and shot). The update notes kind of suggest that this
is still work in progress but also claim that this first iteration should allow projectiles
to break fragile props that would normally block them… and on a very
general basis, that is kind of true. Under the old system one of two things
would happen if your projectile collided with a map prop: the projectile would either pass
straight through (without doing any damage to the prop at all) or the projectile would
bounce off or stop (again without damaging the prop). Now under the new system, all of the props
that I tested did break when hit, so that at least is an improvement. But I still have questions around the
consistency of what happens to the projectile after the collision, because some projectiles when
interacting with some props, will destroy the prop and then continue onwards, while other times
the projectiles could be deflected, they could bounce back, they could just stop and detonate
or, worst case scenario, become completely inactive. Some of these behavioural discrepancies
have been fixed and in those cases the new system works beautifully. Like for instance before the patch: bottles,
laptop screens, PC screens on Coastline, bowls and small vases were inconsistent in their interactions. Hibana pellets would go through the bottles
and laptop screens but would bounce off of the PC screens and bowls and bizarrely,
almost all other projectiles (such as grenades, nitro cells or Zofia’s impact
grenades) were the exact opposite. And you would think that Ash’s breaching
rounds would be able to go through these flimsy items but no, they used to get hung up on all of them. After the patch though, these specific props
no longer interfere with any of the projectiles you can throw at them. Every projectile will break these objects
and then happily continue on its way to wreak death and destruction on
whatever lies in its path behind. But this consistency does not apply to all
props yet by any stretch of the imagination. Check out these PC screens on Bank, for instance. Thrown projectiles will still get deflected
here while Ash charges can get through; both types of Zofia’s grenades though will not
be able to pass through these screens. This seemingly inconsistent pattern of collisions
applies to a bunch of the props on different maps. The money stacks in Bank, table lamps, money counting machines, files or the hookah pipes on Coastline. Other props, such as these bedside lamps [on Coastline] will still block all projectiles. Or these large vases, which will block everything
we tested except for Ash’s breaching grenades. I think you’re starting to get the picture here. This is definitely a step in the right direction
and I fully appreciate that this change still has to be a work in progress because my
assumption is that these interactions have to be fixed by hand, one prop at a time. Nevertheless, the takeaway for you as players
needs to be that for the time being, you probably shouldn’t rely on being able to simply shoot
or throw your projectiles through map props because while it might work in some instances,
it might not work in others and the last thing you want is to put your trust into this new prop interaction system and then have it backfire on you. The Casual game mode has been renamed to Quick
Match and will now be taking on the role swap of pro league, Ranked and Unranked. So, teams will go through first all of their
attack or defence rounds and then swap over. While playing on the test server, this frequently
meant for me that I would only get to play one round after the swap
and then the game would be over. Whether or not this undesirable side-effect
(or at least I think it’s undesirable) will translate over onto the main servers, when
a much larger audience will be playing and the games should theoretically be more
balanced, remains to be seen, but I hope not. Another small update that was unannounced
is that character models will now take a knee when they get onto cams instead of squatting
as if they are trying to complete some Crossfit Workout Of the Day. This is a nice little reversion that makes
so much more sense and hey, maybe we’ll get to a point in future where the operators
will always keel when crouched and not moving because this squat position is literally ridiculous. Nobody, not even elite Team Rainbow
operators can maintain this position and still hope to be able to discharge their weapons
with any reasonable degree of accuracy. But whatevs there’s definitely
bigger issues to deal with in this game. Speaking of which, that leads me to our last
point: the “FIXED” hostage death mechanics and if you turn on closed captions you will
see that I have written “FIXED” in quotation marks and capitals. Ever since Goyo was added last season,
strategies around putting the hostage in a dangerous position and hoping that your opponents will
accidentally kill him/her have become a bit of a challenge for the devs to handle and
the final result was just that the hostage became fire proof. Makes no sense whatsoever but at
least it worked from a gameplay perspective. This immunity is now being removed and a new
system is being put in place to avoid cheesing tactics. If a defender puts the hostage at risk with
their gadget and this results in the hostage getting downed or killed, the defender will
always be blamed as long as the hostage has not been picked up by the attackers yet. As of the in-game rosters right now, this
is supposed to apply to Goyo with his Volcan shields and to Wamai with his MAG-nets. Once the hostage is picked up, then it will
be whoever triggers the device who will be blamed for the kill. So if you’re attacking and you grab the
hostage, deposit them next to a Volcan shield or a MAG-net and then either detonate the
shield or throw an explosive device into the MAG-net, you will be blamed for the death. And good news everyone, the
system actually works for Goyo. When it comes to Wamai though, those of you
who have been playing on the test server over the last few weeks may have had instances
where this new system does not appear to work. Check this out for instance: I pick up the
hostage, drop him next to a MAG-Net and according to the new rules, I should be blamed for the
kill when I toss a grenade but lo and behold, Wamai gets the kill and the attackers win! It took me quite some time and a lot of testing
and puzzling to figure this issue out because sometimes the system works
as intended and sometimes it doesn’t. But in the end it turned out to be a very simple issue. When the MAG-net catches an object, it will
self-detonate a split second before the projectile itself goes off. And since the MAG-net detonation causes
between three and five points of damage to anyone who is to close enough at the time, this
can (in some cases) actually kill the hostage and overrule the fancy new system that
is supposed to fix all of this confusion. You can actively abuse this issue as an attacker
by picking up the hostage, escorting them to a nearby MAG-net, downing them and then
setting off the MAG-net with any non-lethal projectile. Depending on the hostage’s remaining
health, this can lead to an instant round win if the hostage is killed by the MAG-net explosion
or if this is not the case, then the least that will happen is that the fault
attribution is switched to the defenders. Downing the hostage is your fault but then
the MAG-net damage switches the responsibility of the revive to the defenders… Bottom line is that it’s a bit of a mess. And it doesn’t end there. With the new patch, attackers will also be
blamed when the hostage is downed or killed by a Kapkan EDD (as opposed to the
past when poor old Kapkan would get the blame). And to be fair, that actually works… nevertheless,
the system is once again not fool proof and can be exploited. All you have to do is drop the hostage near
a trap, maybe even down him/her, and then set off the trap (preferably with a big fat
shield in front of you) this will then still count as a kill for Kapkan and the defenders will lose. And that is still not all. Maybe even more confusing than
these loopholes is the scoring system. It is completely bonkers. Sometimes, both the defender and the
attacker will have points deducted for friendly fire on the hostage… Sometimes kills will be attributed to one
player (with the corresponding -500 point deduction) but somehow they still win the
round… I don’t even know what the rules around
this are supposed to be but it’s ultra-messy and seemingly random right now. Fair point, you could argue that hostage is a mode
that has almost been phased out of Siege nowadays. You can’t play it in Ranked
or Unranked and even in Causal… I’m sorry, in “Quick Match” many players
will also keep the mode disabled and you won’t really play it much unless you
specifically turn off the other modes. So maybe all of this non-sense won’t even
affect the majority of players anymore but my take on this is that as long as the game
mode is in the game, it should not be this confusing. Pfew, and there you have it. All of the gameplay updates
of Shifting Tides laid bare in detail. As mentioned in the beginning, keep your eyes
peeled for the other videos, one discussing the damage updates to Caveira’s, Ela’s
and the Russian operators’ guns and of course there is also the operator
update video that is already out! Until then many thanks for watching, I hope
you enjoyed the video and I will see you in the next episode!

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About the Author: Sam Caldwell


  1. 1:06 – Limb Penetration system
    1:23 – New Rappel Exit
    1:55 – Gadget Trajectory Asset Destruction
    6:25 – Quick Match Gamemode Updates
    7:00 – Taking A Knee
    7:38 – How To Cheese The Hostage

  2. These issues could be solved by making the hostage invincible. It wouldnt be too different from the biohazard not leakin when shot or the bombs not going off. Also i would like it if there was a secure time for the hostage when outside as it is in t-hunt. A roamer or 1 speed cant really do much with a lot of the objective locations after the attackers grab the hostage.

  3. I haven't been able to play Siege for quite some time; your videos, however, are always a treat to watch. I guess I wouldn't quit watching these even if I'd quit playing the game.

  4. If the attacker walks through a Kapkan trap and it explodes the hostage, the attacker still get the -500 Hostage Killer point subtraction but they still win

  5. I honestly feel like the swapping and only getting one round of something with a 3-0 or 3-1 win because that forces people to attack more and become more comfortable on attack which is needed rn

    Update: just take hostage out

  6. what do you mean nobody can maintain a squat and fire their weapon? the rounds last a few minutes lol, it isn't unrealistic at all. it isn't like an op is stuck in that position for 7 hours.

    also real operators and soldiers do a thing called groucho walking which is where they walk while in a half squat position to minimize their profile and make their torso a smaller target.

  7. Why does Kapkan get the blame when an EDD kills the hostage? In what situation would a Kapkan be able to purposely kill the hostage with EDDs without attackers?

  8. The Hostage mode probably can't be fixed at this point. I wouldn't feel sad if the devs got rid of it altogether. It's fun to imagine a version of the game that was balanced around it from the beginning, though.

  9. 9:15 you sure? I think you gotta move the hostage again, bcs injured or not, wamai thrown the magnet the 2nd time and the hostage didn't get moved by the attackers again, so it counts as Wamai's fault

  10. Maybe because ash has BREACHING rounds, zofia’s explosive rounds are IMPACT and I bet both my kidneys u can’t throw a grenade THROUGH ur monitor

  11. 6:40 “this frequently meant for me that I would only get to play 1 round after a swap, and then the game would be over”
    Yeah, except the same issue happens in ranked. 3rds until swap, yet, game is until 4. Can’t tell you how many times I get Villa and the defenders breeze through aviator & trophy and god forbid you lose the next ATK round because you start defense down 0-3 one mistake and game over. Same with Chalet but in reverse

  12. One thing that wasn't mentioned is the fact that the exit rappel key is not remappable.
    I play with the spacebar toggling the operators' abilities and this creates weird interactions with the system. To exit the rappel you have to press the spacebar for a very short amount of time, else, it doesn't work, for instance, if you keep it pressed.
    Moreover, it immediatly activates the gadget as soon as the rappel animation is done.

  13. So does the inconsistency correlated to the mass and/or velocity of the projectile? Do Ash charges have a higher velocity and/or mass which is what causes them to be able to pass through while Zofias grenades cannot? [Zofia grenades should be able to knock the monitor over but i would imagine still somewhat throw off the trajectory] I support the inconsistencies if they are based on realistic circumstances but some of those you illustrated like the bedside lamps are bull shit and all should pass through. I like the direction they are going in and hope they continue to improve the prop interaction system. All useful information and thanks for sharing Rogue

  14. You say hostage has been phased out but i honestly like it better than bomb. But I rarely play ranked anymore because of map and game mode limitations, and most people dont even really take Pick and Ban seriously… They apparently just ban Jackal.

  15. I have thought about a minor concept that probably won't be added, but something like the hostage being able to act on their own sometimes by trying to sneak out of the objective on rare occasions or something

  16. I'm still not sure why they embraced Bomb mode over Hostage when Hostage requires more tactics since the large majority of explosives can't be used near hostage
    edit: fuck AA/DD.

  17. let’s stay close to reality,you aren,t trowing a 1 kilo rock , it’s just a flashbang it shouldn’t penetrate a f… lamp as if it was a bullet of course it ricocheted ,yeah it should break it but still a little ricochet

  18. Experienced 3 times in Quick Match hostage game. Gridlock Tracks can glitch a downed hostage, will show that the hostage is kneeling despite the revive timer.

  19. I had a game with a friend playing Kali on live where the laundry basket in the entranceway to big garage blocked 4 CSRX shots in a row on a Doc laying still. The system definitely isnt perfect…

  20. Anyone else experiencing horrible sound propagation? It's way off, this is worse than any other season it seems. It's very very frustrating

  21. Another cheese(ish) Strat:
    1. Place a lesion mine near the hostage
    2. Attacker downs the hostage
    3. lesion mine kills the hostage
    4. Attackers win
    5. Profit

  22. I would like to note that you shouldn't post videos like this when you show data from the test server, which is always subject to change or not be consistent with further releases. For example, this operation the test server content for the new operators and map were consistent, but not Lesion's gu mine impact damage. The test server is not trustworthy for nuanced changes like the ones you're showing, I expected you would know this.

  23. I hate everything they've done to Casual.
    Give us back:
    All maps
    I've reached map fatigue in Ranked by season end. Causal was always the way to fix that with every map available. I don't know a single person I've talked to who prefers AADD even in Ranked, to bring it to Casual is just another frustration that causes teammates to leave match.
    They're trying to tune Casual to be more like Ranked, but we have Un-ranked already! (Which is the Casual version of Ranked).
    I strongly disagree with these changes.

  24. Barricades are still don't break properly – also some games they can be open at enemy screen but closed at yours . and at new theme park i think there is a sound problem on middle of the arcade stairs . there i a problem with ragdoll mechanics some times killed players operator will jiggle around . There is a glitch that allow you to climb rooftop at theme park . Still a problem exist with thermite gadget , hibana's gadget when you use them explosion happens but they don't work . Sometimes you don't get damaged by claymore . Also osmeone needs to check if sound problem still exist on kafe dostoyevski hatch on red carpet .

  25. Well, in the swiss military the slav squat position is actually used frequently enough, so I guess it's not too unrealistic. Speaking from personal experience btw

  26. New Quick Match mode is dumb af. If I wanted to play like ranked I would play fucking ranked (or a new mode you know, like a ranked match but where rank doesn't matter, we would call it "Unranked" what a joyful idea!!!)

    This is fucking stupid. When is Ubi going to understand that some people don't give a shit about pro league and just want a fun fucking game mode….

  27. Your wag off with the limb penetration system because bullets and ash charges would go through vases and many many other things. Out of my time of playing R6 for about 3 years I have to say that your not completely right. There have been some changes but stuff would still break if a projectile hand thrown or not it would break and still pass through things even before these changes

  28. The Hostage part is confusing me a little and what I see this we give a big advantage to the attacker and I don't like it a little…and for the immortal object or something :3
    I hope it will be better.
    But for now I don't like the Hostage part

  29. here's an idea. change the hostage to some sort of object, like a laptop or a briefcase and make it invulnerable to any damage.

  30. One thing i think needs to be addressed is hibanas pellets. When you ads to line up where you want her pellets to go. If you are near a wall or ledge it will hit the ledge now. Even though there is a clear outline on wall you are aimed at. This is a new glitch

  31. The rappel exit has also decreased max peak before exiting. I used to be able to peak outside wall in canal by rappelling on those metal shutters. But now i cant look into it.

  32. Need to take a knee when squatting? You've never seen the Chinese/Asian squatting… We don't need a knee on the ground 😛

  33. The only change I wanted was the kapkan blame and for the Diamond over the hostages head to stay visible no matter what.

  34. Shouldnt there be the battle pass at the Beginn of the season? Where is it? Was there any Statement of ubi? Havent found anything

  35. As a developer that works on games, I would assume all the props are in their own class in the code, so the code can be easily change but some subclasses of props don't inherit the new system

  36. Rogue-9 please help ubi listens to you guys start a movement to get casual back forcing competitive in all modes isn't good all my friends are leaving siege and I find myself playing less and less

  37. Why are they making casual, less casual? Do Ubisoft understand that not everyone wants to take the game as seriously as others?

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